Posts by Olin Moyles Ghost

189

so they never claimed to be an inspired prophet?

by ninja in

*** si p. 9 all scripture is inspired of god and beneficial ***.

line of communication.

16 someone may ask, what has been the means of communication?

Olin Moyles Ghost

Just checked on this thread...seven pages already...wow.

In the past, I was surprised at the "logic" used by some JWs to justify the false prophecies of their religious leaders--especially their tortured, twisted, convoluted definition of the term "prophecy." It's absurdly simple--if you predict something in God's name, then you're a prophet. If you're wrong, then you're a false prophet. (Deut. 18:20-22). Not too complicated. So, I wondered, how in the world could WT/JW believers doggedly defend their religious leaders in spite of the facts? It puzzled me.

But then I remembered something about human nature, and the power of a strongly-held belief. It doesn't matter that it's patently absurd. What matters is the strength of belief. You know, there are people out there that will argue the following "facts" for days and cannot be convinced otherwise:

that the earth is flat (yes, there are some people today who still believe this)
that cigarettes don't really cause cancer
that the planet earth is only 6,000 years old
that seatbelts cause more harm than good
that the moon landing was faked

In other words, some people simply don't have the intelligence, humility, and/or honest-heartedness to face up to the facts. Nowhere is this more prevalent than in the area of religion. But that's the way it has always been, and it will be that way for the rest of our lives...time to move on. If some wish to remain deluded, allow them to remain that way.

24

Word on the street is that Facebook is going to be banned...

by middleman in

jw
friends

...at the next assembly.

i've heard from various sorces that the gb are planning on making it off limits, like they have already done for myspace.

has anyone else heard this?

Olin Moyles Ghost

Myspace has been "banned" in that it has been called out from the platform at assemblies and C.O. visits. To my knowledge, there is nothing in print, and it is not the sort of thing that would warrant judicial action. But, I would put Myspace in the category of R-rated movies and going to nightclubs--things that JWs are not supposed to do (but 'bad' JWs do them anyway).

It would not surprise me if the WTS comes down on Facebook. In fact, I am surprised that so many JWs are on Facebook when it's a social networking site like Myspace. It seems that if Myspace is "bad," then Facebook would be "bad" for the same reasons.

47

Would you rather see the WTS move mainstream or just collapse in a heap?

by ThomasCovenant in

jw
friends

maybe eventually the wts will adapt and change and try to go mainstream.. as 'new shite' shines brightly then;.

maybe eventually celebrating birthdays and even christmas will be 'allowed' without too many repercussions.. maybe eventually the 'blood' issue will fade away and 'brothers' wil be allowed the whole lot of fractions together at the same time.. maybe eventually disfellowshipping and particularly shunning will be seen as unloving and done away with.. personally i would rather this wouldn't happen.. i would prefer to see the wts collapse in the mire even with all the emotional fallout there would be to those still in having their crutches pulled away from them.. i don't want the wts to modify and adapt and go more gentle on the rank and file.. i want them to get more harsh with the brothers.. i want it to go down, not along.. am i being too cruel to those still in?.

would the more loving caring attitude be to hope that the wts changes for the better?.

Olin Moyles Ghost

The WT isn't going away in our lifetimes. While it has (and likely will continue to) become more mainstream, it will not become a 'mainstream' religion in our lifetimes either. When I say that the WT will become more mainstream, I mean that JWs will continue to be more "worldly" in their personal choices, such as college, entertainment, careers. But the WT/JW religion will not become mainstream in the sense that it will likley continue to forbid holidays, birthdays, politics, and the like.

Part of the appeal of the WT/JW religion is is exclusivity and its (for lack of a better term) weirdness. For a segment of society, the fact that the WT/JW religion is strange and different is appealing. Why? Well, one reason is that it leads to opposition from friends and family. This is interpreted as "persecution." The Witness is conditioned to expect to be persecuted for his beliefs. Thus, this reinforces his position that he is "in the truth."

48

What % of WT Society Higher Ups Really Believe what the WT Teaches ?

by flipper in

jw
friends

as opposed to how many gb members, wt legal, wt corporate attorneys and the powers of the wt society know it's a big scam to exert power and control over it's members ?

as always i look forward to your opinions and observations .

peace out to all, mr. flipper.

Olin Moyles Ghost

If the question is what percentage of WT leaders believe every current JW doctrine--then, I would say very few. But if the question is what percentage believe that the Governing Body is God's channel of communication and the only means of salvation--then I would say 100% or very close to it.

Any studious JW is going to have some unresolved questions and issues with WT teachings. A classic example is the teaching that you must be a JW to survive Armageddon. Very few JWs (among those to whom I've spoken about this matter) really believe that God is going to kill billions of Chinese and Arabs at Armageddon. Rather, they are content to "wait on Jehovah" and "trust in his mercy," etc. So, while such JWs don't necessarily agree with this specific teaching, they do believe in the more important teaching that the WT/GB is God's representative on earth and the only means for salvation.

As someone once stated on this board (I think it was V)--JWs don't believe in anything. And that's 100% true. They have put their faith and allegiance in nine men in New York. Doctrines can change; rules can change; but as long as the JW believes that salvation only comes through the WT society, he is on the "right track."

189

so they never claimed to be an inspired prophet?

by ninja in

*** si p. 9 all scripture is inspired of god and beneficial ***.

line of communication.

16 someone may ask, what has been the means of communication?

Olin Moyles Ghost

I love how the Watchtower leadership twists the English language in order to avoid any accountability for their failed prophecies. Reminds me of former U.S. President Bill Clinton who famously stated "it depends on what your definition of 'is' is." He was rightly mocked and ridiculed for this absurd parsing of words. And this is the reaction that the WT deserves for its blundering attempts to avoid accountability as a prophet.

Yes, the WT Society is doing its best to 'have its cake and eat it too.' On the one hand, the Society claims to be God's only channel of communication and man's only means for salvation (to get to Jesus, you must go through the WT). Consequently, the Society demands complete obedience and adherence to its doctrines and rules. Just like the Catholic Pope, the Mormon President, and the like.

But on the other hand, the Society insulates itself from any accountability for its mistakes. It does this in several ways. For example, by impugning the character of individuals who bring these mistakes to light. Also, by twisting and contorting the definition of the word "prophet" beyond recognition.

By doing this, the Society demonstrates characteristics closer to that of the "evil slave" of Matthew 24. Note that the evil slave thought his master was delaying. In order to think your master is delaying, you must have expected him to come earlier (otherwise it would not be a delay). Who was it that expected the master to come earlier? Any reasonable observer will recognize that the WT Society has brazenly predicted Christ's return numerous times--and each time was a failure. Perhaps this is why the Society beats its fellow slaves...

189

so they never claimed to be an inspired prophet?

by ninja in

*** si p. 9 all scripture is inspired of god and beneficial ***.

line of communication.

16 someone may ask, what has been the means of communication?

Olin Moyles Ghost

The WT becomes quite Bill Clinton-esque when it comes to the word "prophet." And it's not surprising. This is one area in which a plain reading of scripture indicts the Society cleanly and crisply.

Thus, the Society uses "weasel words" and sophistry in order to somehow rationalize that making predictions in God's name is not prophecy. If that's not prophecy, then what in the world does the word mean? Basically, they eviscerate any meaning of the word in order to save their own skin.

Note the Society's favorite scriptures (Matt. 24:45-51 and Luke 12:42-46). In both accounts, which servant/slave is expecting the Lord to return at a particular time? Not the "faithful" one, but rather the "evil" one--because he is the one who thinks his master is delaying. In order to think the master is delaying, he must have identified a particular time at which he expected the master to return.

And who identified a time at which the master was expected to return? Well, that would be the Watchtower Society.

And Steve2, I think you're referring to Luke 21:8...another verse that blows the Society out of the water.

30

"We are not hear to change your religion"....why do Witnesses lie?

by Witness 007 in

the truth = yes we are!!

ive said this in the past but really why am i at the door...not to sell vaccum cleaners!

we dont "force" people to change religions.....we just force them to stay in with disfellowshiping......."we don't hate gays".......we are just waiting for them to be burnt to death at armagedon..

Olin Moyles Ghost

I used to say this at doors "We're not here to change your religion today." This was a true statement. I wasn't going to change their religion that day. Of course, I hoped to change their religion eventually...

15

UN to destroy Religion like JW predict???

by asilentone in

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4aruoyudd74.

Olin Moyles Ghost

No. That's idiotic. First, the UN is practically impotent. It couldn't ban its way out of a paper bag. Second, the UN is actually going in the other direction--trying to prevent people from criticizing religion. See Resolution 62/154 (http://www.undemocracy.com/A-RES-62-154); and see Christopher Hitchens' commentary on it (http://www.slate.com/id/2212662/).

42

Those who don't hear "truth" free ticket into Paradise...yet babies will be killed??

by Witness 007 in

why preach??

those who don't hear the "truth" will get a second chance in paradise, so we are just condemning people to death who close the door on us!

also babies and children of worldly people will be killed with their parents which contradicts this first policy.....any thoughts??.

Olin Moyles Ghost

You've stumbled across a glitch in JW/WT theology. This is the reason that the WT has to (at least implicitly) teach that only JWs can survive the battle of Armageddon. Otherwise, the "preaching work" is not really a life-saving work.

I see two main alternatives:

You must be a JW to survive the battle of Armageddon. Thus, the preaching work is life-saving. But also this means that if the end really is imminent, then God is going to kill lots of Arabs, Chinese, etc., who have never heard of Jesus, much less the Watchtower. OR
God and Christ are going to judge peoples' hearts, and those with "good hearts" will be allowed to survive Armageddon even if they never heard "the Truth."

The problem with #2 is that it contradicts the WT teaching that their preaching is life-saving. As the OP pointed out, this belief would transform the preaching work into mere busy-work--basically the modern-day equivalent of God telling Ezekiel to lay on his side for a year (Ezekiel 4).

Thus, the WT is pinned into a theological corner. For obvious reasons, it does not want to go on record stating that only JWs will survive the imminent end. But it also doesn't want its all-important, life-saving preaching work relegated to mere busy-work. Thus, you get what we have today: a confusing, inconsistent, contradictory doctrine.

I would say that the JW doctrine about who survives Armageddon is every bit as confusing as Christendom's Trinity doctrine...and probably has less Scriptural support.

32

Jehovah's Witnesses do not know their own doctrines

by BonaFide in

jw
friends

i am still active to try and help family and friends, so that's why i say we.

i know i have brought this up before, but i cannot get over the fact that every service group i go in, and every dinner after the meeting, or coffee or whatever, no one seems to be reading the magazines.

no one understands the doctrines of the generation, 1919, not even blood.. when i bring up one of those subjects, one in the group will repeat the phrase we learned at the meetings, such as "blood fractions is not really blood" or "i think the generation refers more to the anointed or something like that.

Olin Moyles Ghost

Agree 100%. Most JWs--especially the under-40 born-in crowd--don't know much about doctrine beyond (1) no trinity, (2) no hell, (3) no immortal soul, and (4) paradise earth.

And to the point relayed by Wobble about "it's still the best way of life": When JWs say this, I doubt they're talking about getting up early, putting on a cheap suit and pestering their neighbors on Saturday mornings. I also doubt they're talking about running home from work on Thursday night, gulping down some food, putting on another cheap suit, and sitting at a sales meeting for 2 hours. Rather, they're probably talking about living a morally clean life according to "Bible principles."

So, here the Witness is basically co-opting all of the good stuff from the Bible and making it the sole province of the JWs. As if you could not possible follow "Bible principles" if you weren't a JW. This is not sound reasoning.

I actually agree that living by "Bible principles" (and by this, I mean the golden rule and Jesus' lessons on morality) is the best way of life. But you don't have to be a JW to follow these rules. There are lots of people in the world who do their best to live by these principles. Some of these are not Christians--some are not even religious. And they would agree that it's the best way of life.